DOES INDIA EXIST? RAM! RAM!! RAM!!!---WHAT A
QUESTION?
Did Lord RAMA exist? "What a question"---you will
say. "RAM!RAM!!RAM!!! Don't be stupid? " , Some RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS WILL SHOUT AT
ME. Ask ASI or GOVT OF INDIA. "Of course not", would say the ASI. "It is a
myth"', it will yell ,"Created by BALMIKI and TULSIDAS". ASI is not alone, it is
supported by some self-styled pseudo historians of INDIA. One , such a guy is
Professor RP Tripathi, professor of ancient history of India at ALLAHABAD
UNIVERSITY. He says that there is no hard evidence on the existence of
RAMA--- like coins , stamps or edicts or any other such thing. Well, he is
looking for it after thousands of years. i wonder if he can provide any
evidence --hard one--on him being called a TRIPATHI. Can he show me any edict or
a stamp of his ancestors? Perhaps he does not know as to what is ORAL HISTORY?
He is asking for hard evidence like a child, with his parents, insisting to buy
a toy in the market. Good show, sir. But 'hard-evidence-logic' is often used
as a riddle to confuse the real issue. A similar question was asked by OSSAMA
BIN LADEN and his Al -QAIDA cohorts after 9/11 episode. They shouted : WHAT IS
THE HARD EVIDENCE? Till date there is none--other than the mere statements by
some individuals. Mr TRPATHI--What is the HARD EVIDENCE OF YOUR ANCESTRY?
Oral history has elements of real truth in it, though
with varying degrees,--whereas archaeology is just conjecturesof a few
individuals---it may or may not be the absolute truth. I am appalled at these
pseudo- indian -historians who mislead the officialdom with their irrational
thinking of half-baked logic and try to PUNCTURE SOLID BELIEFS OF A MAJORITY
They should be devoting more time on doing some real historical
work. TiILL DATE, THESE PSEUDO INDIAN HISTORIANS HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE
TO DECIPHER THE HARAPPAN -CIVILISATION SCRIPT, WHICH IS JUST 484 CHARACTERS.
They continue to confuse between "HARAPPAN CIVILISATION" and "INDUS VALLEY
CIVILISATION". They pay no attention to unravel the PRE-HARAPPAN
Civilisation--evidences of which had been found around CHANDIGARH in
1950's--when the city was being developed. They think INDIAN history
is only in ARCHAEOLOGY and the interpretations they make from the excavations of
1920's. THESE GUYS ARE IN PROMINENCE, DURING UPA REGIME, COURTESY THE LIKES OF
ARJUN SINGHS, DUE TO THEIR LEFTIST LEANINGS. They are dividing the INDIAN
SOCIETY by creating such controversies.
My questions are: IS THIS THE WAY A SECULAR
GOVT SHOULD BEHAVE? Why have they dismissed the STORY of RAM as a MYTH? CAN THEY
DO THE SAME THING TO PROPHET MOHAMMED OR JESUS CHRIST OR THE SIKH GURUS OR EVEN
MAHATAMA BUDH? There will be mayhem in this country if such stupid affidavits
are submitted on any of the minority religions? Then, why has the GOVERNMENT
allowed DORJEE and his COHORTS to run amuck with their logic? Afterall, there
is no hard evidence on some of them ,too. There are only stories and write-ups
by some people. Same is true of LORD RAMA and his monument and story.
Let me also ask them IF THEY KNOW WHETHER INDIA
EXISTS? Where? There is no hard evidence historically? Do not talk of the
BRITISH DAYS. It was not a NATION but a COLONY. Historically, INDIA WAS AN IDEA
WHICH LIVED IN THE MINDS OF PEOPLE WHEN BRITISH RULED THE SUB CONTINENT. Prior
to this, it was only a conglomerate of FEUDAL/ SMALL PRINCIPALITIES. It was not
an India as we KNOW it today. Yet we CLAIM THAT IT HAS EXISTED FOR 5000 years.
it is an OFFICIAL POSITION of the Government of India. IT IS SO, MY DEAR,
BECAUSE IT WAS PART OF OUR ORAL HISTORY---BECAUSE AS A CULTURAL ENTITY WE HAVE
EXISTED FOR ALL THOSE YEARS---THOuGH THERE ARE NO STAMPS, EDICTS, ARTEFACTS,
EXCAVATIONS or EVEN THE WORD INDIA--- which say INDIA was a POLITICAL OR
AN HISTORICAL ENTITY. The name INDIA, Is not INDIAN at all. Even today , INDIA
exists only in TEXT BOOKS of school kids. You will find in this land called
INDIA, people proudly identifying themselves as TAMILS, GUJRATIS, PUNJABIS,
ANDHARITES, RAJASTHANIS, ASSAMESE, NAGAS, KASHMIRIS, MAHARASHTRIANS, ORIYAS,
HARYANBIS and so on. Rarely people in India take pride as INDIANS. There is a
big divide in india due to religious resurgence. ASI is going out of its way to
enhance this chasm.
I am not a die hard follower of HINDUISM. But
for the sake of peace in this country I feel such CONTROVERSIES must not be
raised which might give excuse to some people to start an EMOTIONAL MOVEMENT.
What happened in 1985--when RAJIV GANDHI OPENED UP THE DOORS OF JANAM BHOOMI
MANDIR at AYODHYA? It culminated into MAYHEM on 06 DEC 1991. Hasn't the major
constituent of UPA learnt lessons from the illogical actions of its late beloved
leader? I only wish such stupid acts do not lead to 'SEQUELISING' of the BABRI
MASJID EPISODE. Let intellectuals and historians, in their air- conditioned
convention halls, debate on the EXISTENCE or NON-EXISTENCE of all HISTORICAL and
RELIGIOUS FIGURES. It should not be thrown open into the PUBLIC DOMAIN. Good
that GOOF-UP has been realised very soon by the GOVT but it provided the handle
to some to thrash the govt. It must not make another mistake and TELL ITS PAID
HISTORIANS TO SPEND MORE TIME ON UNRAVELING THE MYSTERIES OF HARAPPAN AND
PRE-HARAPPAN CIVILISATIONS RATHER THAN CREATING AVOIDABLE CONTROVERSIES. HISTORY
IS NOT THE SOLE PRESERVE OF GOVT AND ITS PAID HISTORIANS.
manish71 posted 5
yrs ago
thanx rajee.
excellent work indeed. your blog on hinduism is highly informative. keep
it up
rajee
kushwaha posted 5 yrs ago
dear manish71,
thank you very much for your kind words. first things first. i am
not a religious bigot. in fact i do not believe in "birth tag religion". i am
actuaaly an advocate and believer of humanism---not withstanding the nirth tag
of a hindu. in fact i refuse to accept the word "hindu" as it is of persian
origion--and also indian--which is of greek origion. would you like to read my
blog on " hinduism----- what is it?".it was placed on sulekhain may 2007..the
link is:-
here is an extract from it:-
--------- my quest is to know what
the heck is 'hinduism'? is it really a religion? to all its detracters and also
its followers, it would be an interesting exercise to know that the word 'hindu'
was not to be found in any of the ancient literature of this so called religion.
the origional text of 'vedas', 'epics'( ramayana & mahabharta), holy book
'geeta', 'upnishads', 'puranas or even 'brahmanas' do not have a mention of the
word 'hindu' even once. according to famous indologist and a renowned historian,
mr john keay, first time this word appeared in the written form was in 518
bc.(refer to pp 10 of history of india by john keay.) it was on a tablet by king
darius-1 of ancient persia ( iran). according to the tablet, the diktat on it
had said that king darius-1 ruled upto and beyond river 'hindu' (sindhu/indus).
john keay goes on to explain that the word 'hindu' was, in fact, a corruption of
the sanskrit word, "sindhu" . it is believed that the ancient persians
pronounced 's' with apostraphe 'h'. thus river "sindhu" became river
"hindu".
this has been also authenticated by the renowned indian archaeologist, sh. rajesh kochhar, in his book," a vedic history of india". in the book , a number of such examples have been given---such as 'asura' in sanskrit as 'ahura' in ancient persian ( avaistic zenda) or dasyu in sanskrit as 'dahyu'. actually rajesh kochhar goes on to say that ancient persians belonged to the same branch of the aryans who came to india.( by the way, please note aryans was not a race as it is thought to be; it was simply a lingual fraternity!) more on this, some time later in the future. therefore, the ancient persians called, anyone living east of the river "hindu" (sindhu,) as a 'hindu'. please note, it was a geographical connotation and it had a foreign origion. according to john keay in his another book, 'into india' the word hindu was used for describing the "geographical & cultural identity" of a person as and at par with 'indian' today or as a 'briton' or an 'american' would mean to us now-a-days. people in the olden days, followed a number of temporal sects with separate identities such as 'shaivism', 'vaishnavism', 'buddhism' or 'jainism'. they were all called hindus as late as till 18th century.
further, it may be noted, when the ancient persians interacted with the greeks, the word 'hindu' lost its 'h' and became "indie", "indic" or "india". 'alexander the great'( sikander-e-azam) called it the land of india. from the greks the word travelled further west and they named this land as india. but the persians and the arabs kept on calling it 'hindustan'( land of hindus). it was never a religious identity. it was purely a geographical and cultural description of the people living here. people followed vaishnav (vedic) and shaivite (naga) practices. the vedic people called this land as "aryavrat" and shaivites called it as,"bharatvarsh". ( shaivites were the followers of lord shiva and belonged to a race called naga--who were scattered from afghanistan in the west to assam in the east to maharashtra in the south--their philosophy was live todayi.e. eat(also meat) , drink and be merry--as opposed to vaishnavs, who were not only 'pure vegetarians' but also worried of the future.)
later came the buddhists and jains who were in reality an off-shoot product of the synthesis of vaishnavism and shaivism. synthesis only led to new temporal procedures witout changing the geographical or the cultural identity of the people of this land. so, the foreigners, particularly the arabs & persians, continued to referrto them as "hindus" only. slightly digressing here to press home the point. please note dr sir iqbal mohammed's famoous poem "hindustan hamara'. he was a man of history and he knew his origion. this is why he exhorts our people, "--------mazhab nahin sikhata aapas mein bair rakhna, 'hindi' hai hum watan hai hindustan hamara----" ( the religion does not teach us to have animosity towards each other; we are 'hindi' and our nation is 'hindustan'). i would like to draw your attention to the word "hindi" meaning "we are all hindus!". unfortunately, religious bigots got the better of him, as they do even today of the most sensible people in various religions in india.
how did the word "hindu" acquire religious connotation? after the word came into existence around sixth century bc as a geographical & cultural identity of the people living east of the river "sindhu"( hindu or indus), it continued to carry same meaning for another 1000 years. around 530 ad, a hun prince, gopalditya, was corronated as king of kashmir. he was son of 'mihirkula'---a tyrant hun king of kashmir. gopalditya was a very learned man and a good administrator. one day while going around his capital with his minister, he saw people following weird temporal practices. some were worshipping idols. some were advocating eating of meat and drinking of intoxicants, while some others totally preached against it. he noticed, despite all these differences and opposing views, people lived in harmony and peace. he was impressed with such neighbourly co-existence. he asked his minister on the weird ways of the people. minister said," they are 'hindus' and they do not follow one temporal practice. they tolerate opposite views and dissidence. it is their way of living." "oh, great! then i will also become a hindu.", he had said. this is how then the word 'hindu' began to acquire religious meaning. it must be said that it was then a confluence of various temporal practices---particularly 'shaivism' and 'vaisnavism'---widely and diametrically opposite thoughts. all the same the word continued to carry its old persian identity of 'cultural nationhood' --right upto the 18th century. ------------------------------------------------------"
this has been also authenticated by the renowned indian archaeologist, sh. rajesh kochhar, in his book," a vedic history of india". in the book , a number of such examples have been given---such as 'asura' in sanskrit as 'ahura' in ancient persian ( avaistic zenda) or dasyu in sanskrit as 'dahyu'. actually rajesh kochhar goes on to say that ancient persians belonged to the same branch of the aryans who came to india.( by the way, please note aryans was not a race as it is thought to be; it was simply a lingual fraternity!) more on this, some time later in the future. therefore, the ancient persians called, anyone living east of the river "hindu" (sindhu,) as a 'hindu'. please note, it was a geographical connotation and it had a foreign origion. according to john keay in his another book, 'into india' the word hindu was used for describing the "geographical & cultural identity" of a person as and at par with 'indian' today or as a 'briton' or an 'american' would mean to us now-a-days. people in the olden days, followed a number of temporal sects with separate identities such as 'shaivism', 'vaishnavism', 'buddhism' or 'jainism'. they were all called hindus as late as till 18th century.
further, it may be noted, when the ancient persians interacted with the greeks, the word 'hindu' lost its 'h' and became "indie", "indic" or "india". 'alexander the great'( sikander-e-azam) called it the land of india. from the greks the word travelled further west and they named this land as india. but the persians and the arabs kept on calling it 'hindustan'( land of hindus). it was never a religious identity. it was purely a geographical and cultural description of the people living here. people followed vaishnav (vedic) and shaivite (naga) practices. the vedic people called this land as "aryavrat" and shaivites called it as,"bharatvarsh". ( shaivites were the followers of lord shiva and belonged to a race called naga--who were scattered from afghanistan in the west to assam in the east to maharashtra in the south--their philosophy was live todayi.e. eat(also meat) , drink and be merry--as opposed to vaishnavs, who were not only 'pure vegetarians' but also worried of the future.)
later came the buddhists and jains who were in reality an off-shoot product of the synthesis of vaishnavism and shaivism. synthesis only led to new temporal procedures witout changing the geographical or the cultural identity of the people of this land. so, the foreigners, particularly the arabs & persians, continued to referrto them as "hindus" only. slightly digressing here to press home the point. please note dr sir iqbal mohammed's famoous poem "hindustan hamara'. he was a man of history and he knew his origion. this is why he exhorts our people, "--------mazhab nahin sikhata aapas mein bair rakhna, 'hindi' hai hum watan hai hindustan hamara----" ( the religion does not teach us to have animosity towards each other; we are 'hindi' and our nation is 'hindustan'). i would like to draw your attention to the word "hindi" meaning "we are all hindus!". unfortunately, religious bigots got the better of him, as they do even today of the most sensible people in various religions in india.
how did the word "hindu" acquire religious connotation? after the word came into existence around sixth century bc as a geographical & cultural identity of the people living east of the river "sindhu"( hindu or indus), it continued to carry same meaning for another 1000 years. around 530 ad, a hun prince, gopalditya, was corronated as king of kashmir. he was son of 'mihirkula'---a tyrant hun king of kashmir. gopalditya was a very learned man and a good administrator. one day while going around his capital with his minister, he saw people following weird temporal practices. some were worshipping idols. some were advocating eating of meat and drinking of intoxicants, while some others totally preached against it. he noticed, despite all these differences and opposing views, people lived in harmony and peace. he was impressed with such neighbourly co-existence. he asked his minister on the weird ways of the people. minister said," they are 'hindus' and they do not follow one temporal practice. they tolerate opposite views and dissidence. it is their way of living." "oh, great! then i will also become a hindu.", he had said. this is how then the word 'hindu' began to acquire religious meaning. it must be said that it was then a confluence of various temporal practices---particularly 'shaivism' and 'vaisnavism'---widely and diametrically opposite thoughts. all the same the word continued to carry its old persian identity of 'cultural nationhood' --right upto the 18th century. ------------------------------------------------------"
i hope you will get to know as to what i mean. i am not a diehard fan of
hinduism. i know its limitations but i am against people who unnecessarily
euologise or deride it. ram is not the issue. it is centuries old belief of the
people which is being ridiculed publicly which i am not accepting. i know there
are so many untruths about this religion which a brahmanical class has
prepetuauted as truth. but prepare your people to accept this truth. as i had
told tombaan--i am of the view if at all ramayana was enacted it was in
afghanistan. but i can not go public with this as i deeply hold aechaeology
ought to be corroborated by oral history or some other finds. till it happens i
discuss this only with intellectuals. ----i go a step further---all the vedic
knowledge---epical stories----is not aryan but of naga civilisation(harappan).
the marauding aryans came from the west vanquished the nagas---but adopted and
took away their knowledge---which they popularised it as aryan or vedic. so, iam
here niether with western historians and nor with indian scholars. i have solid
reason to say this. regards. rajee.
manish71 posted 5
yrs ago
dear rajee,
you have a great knowledge of history and beliefs. you also have an admirable quality of expression. but having all these things, why are you confined to your own religion only? and why aren’t you helping us to know the things in deeper ways? i am considered to be a north indian hindu, so i want to know that what makes us hindu. and what forces us to believe in the number of mythological characters of puranas, mahkavyas etc?
i respect your feelings towards religion (dharma); however the term “dharma” does not literally mean religion. in its most frequent usage (in the sphere of morality and ethics) dharma means 'right way of living', 'proper conduct', 'duty' or 'righteousness'. with respect to spirituality, dharma might be considered the way of the higher truths.
in the religious sense, the word, "hindu" is often used broadly to include buddhists, jains and sikhs in addition to those who are described as "hindu" in this most restricted sense of the term, that is, the adherents of vedic or brahmin religion. for example, the expression "hindu" is used in the hindu law not only for those who are hindu by religion but also for persons who are buddhists, jains and sikhs by religion. this, again, is too broad a definition of "hindu". if we consistently use the word "hindu" in this sense, we will have to say thatjapan
i fail to understand why we people are more concerned about the cow rather than the woman. we can start a movement for the safety of cow, but we are least bothered about the plight of woman in this country. and now we are giving more priority to the beliefs, overlooking the progress and development of the country.
i have not read balmiki ramayana completely, but i have gone through the various chapters/khands of the same, in which lord ram was described as a great king, engaged in all normal activities of leisure and pleasure like all other kings. have you ever given it a thought; why an intellectual person like dr. ambedkar adopted the buddhist religion, whereas he hailed from the balmiki caste?
you have a great knowledge of history and beliefs. you also have an admirable quality of expression. but having all these things, why are you confined to your own religion only? and why aren’t you helping us to know the things in deeper ways? i am considered to be a north indian hindu, so i want to know that what makes us hindu. and what forces us to believe in the number of mythological characters of puranas, mahkavyas etc?
i respect your feelings towards religion (dharma); however the term “dharma” does not literally mean religion. in its most frequent usage (in the sphere of morality and ethics) dharma means 'right way of living', 'proper conduct', 'duty' or 'righteousness'. with respect to spirituality, dharma might be considered the way of the higher truths.
in the religious sense, the word, "hindu" is often used broadly to include buddhists, jains and sikhs in addition to those who are described as "hindu" in this most restricted sense of the term, that is, the adherents of vedic or brahmin religion. for example, the expression "hindu" is used in the hindu law not only for those who are hindu by religion but also for persons who are buddhists, jains and sikhs by religion. this, again, is too broad a definition of "hindu". if we consistently use the word "hindu" in this sense, we will have to say that
i fail to understand why we people are more concerned about the cow rather than the woman. we can start a movement for the safety of cow, but we are least bothered about the plight of woman in this country. and now we are giving more priority to the beliefs, overlooking the progress and development of the country.
i have not read balmiki ramayana completely, but i have gone through the various chapters/khands of the same, in which lord ram was described as a great king, engaged in all normal activities of leisure and pleasure like all other kings. have you ever given it a thought; why an intellectual person like dr. ambedkar adopted the buddhist religion, whereas he hailed from the balmiki caste?
rajee
kushwaha posted 5 yrs ago
dear manish71,
you r absolutely right that epic is not the true history. i
didnot say that our epics represented or contained indian or hindu history. but
what is history? henry ford had said that history was bumkum. dear, archaeology
is also not true history. it gives out the history based on the interpretations
and inferences of a few persons. it is subject to the extent of knowledge,
preferences, inclinations and bias of those individuals. the third source of
history is oral history--or the folk lore. it is a known fact that prior to the
advent of christ there are no official records of world history. most of the
modern written history has been extracted from folklore or oral history, written
material and archaeological excavations. but no single source is authentic. what
you called indus valley civilisation in 1920 has been questioned now. it is now
being refered to as harappan civilisation. archaeologists have their serious
limitations to comment on historical facts. they can only corroborate but can
not dismiss it as trash.
secondly we must know there can be no smoke without fire. right. you
have yourself said that there existed so many version of ramayana. question is
not on the scale and nature or period of ramayana but his existence. majority of
the people have this tale of rama coming to them from their ancestors as part of
folk lore or the oral history. there has to be some truth if ot the whole truth.
it can not be dismissed by asi as a myth. this has been there for centuries.
epics are the written material which corroborate the oral history. therefore the
existence of rama, at whatever scale can not be discounted because some hard
nosed archaeologist did not find coins or artefacts of rama's time. this line of
thinking is rubbish.
having said all this i now turn to what i feel on ramayana and ram.
i have no doubts that he had existed. read my views in comments to tombaan.
regards. get back to you later. regards. rajee.
manish71 posted 5
yrs ago
epic is not a history. epic is always fanciful whereas history is
plain informative. so searching historical truth in an epic is just a mere
hypocrisy and disgrace to its literary value. for such reasons, nobody look for
greek historical evidences in homeric epic odyssey or iliad
though it is true that the two epics were written entirely based on
contemporary greek civilization and various contemporary popular beliefs on gods
and goddesses. but in indian subcontinent it has become a common trend to search
historical truth in ancient epic like ramayana or mahabharata. the main reasons
behind the deceitful quest is that both ramayana and mahabharata have
successfully been portrayed as "holy scripture" now a day to the common mass by
clever media ignoring its literary and poetic composition. the problem of
considering an epic as "holy scripture" begins when a simple literary
composition becomes "holy", the believers fail to accept a single word of it as
imaginary, each and every sentence becomes irrefutable "bed-bakkyo" (gospel
truth) to them.
ramayana is a very ancient literary composition. probably most of
the readers are not aware that there are several types of this epic exist. for
example, in ancient buddhist literature "dashrath jatak" ramayana it was clearly
mentioned that shita was not the wife of ram, rather she was a sister of ram.
then again, "adbhut ramayan" described shita as an abandoned child of ravan
and mondodori- who was found in the ridge of agricultural land by the royal
sage, nanak. at the same time a severe deviation in the story is observed in
north indian ramayana and south indian ramayana, addhatma ramayana, jogbashista
ramayana, bhushundi ramayana ram-charaita manash or tulshi ramayana and
krittibashi ramayana. besides these, there are a lot of fictional prose and
alternative versions of ramayana are available in other asian countries outside
india. therefore, a lot of confusion raises about the main story of ramayana.
we however, will limit our discussion within balmiki ramayana.
balmiki ramayana is the "aadi" (original) ramayana. most of the
scholars agree on the matter that balmiki ramayana originally consisted of five
parts starting from ajodhya kanda to judhya kanda. balmiki ramayana described
ram not as an avatar but just as a mighty king who was eminently skilled in
warfare. there was no supernatural phenomenon characterizing ram that could be
related to a deity. bal-kanda and uttar-kanda in ramayana were the addition of
later stage. some of the stories dealing with supernatural events were added in
that age, but according to l. besham, the avatarism and supernaturalism of ram
was added mainly in gupta age (around 4th-5th a.d). the avatar image of ram was
firmly established after the external attack of turkey-afghan.
in the year of 1988-90 we all know, indian tv channel
-"doordarshan" shamefully broadcasted ramayana and mahabharata (the two most
popular tv serials) from strictly religious point of view - focusing mainly on
avatar image and supernaturalism which eventually created a massive sensation
about "ram-janmabhumi" (birthplace of ram) myth among the hindu community in the
subcontinent at that time. it is ought to mention that the story which was shown
in the tv serial was not based on original balmiki ramayana, but entirely based
on tulshi ramayana - commonly known as "ram-charita manash". tulshi ramayana,
which came actually as a result of spiritual movement stimulated in middle age,
portrayed ram as avatar, completely deviating from original spirit of ramayana.
the main purpose of tulshi ramayana was to establish vishnu as the supreme god
and ram as an avatar ! doordarshan even being a government media, took a very
deceitful strategy of spreading lies and blind belief among the hindu community
which excited fundamental and communal politics relating "ram-janmabhumi" issue
in later stage. when ramayana was being broadcasted for the first time as a tv
serial, a tremendous flow of upholding hindu-myth was observed among the common
mass.
in twenty-first century while the whole world is advancing in
technical field using science and logic, the ignorant mass in our subcontinent
are engaged in violence in ajodhya and gujarat inspired by their holy scripture.
how can we hide our ignorance and shame from rest of the the whole world ? it is
the high time now to dissect the religious scriptures from rational point of
view and educate the common mass against all type of fundamentalism and
communalism.
rajee
kushwaha posted 5 yrs ago
dear tombaan,
i agree with you as long as the issue is between me a nd you. in fact my
own views on the enactment ramayana, if it happened, are very radical. i am of
the view that ramayana was enacted in present day afghanistan--we have
archaeological facts to substantiate them along with historical logic. look at
this way, sita spent her last days around amritsar in punjab--ram tirath---which
was supposedly balmiki's ashram. lord ram's two sons luv and kush were born
here. luv went on to establish present day lahore and kush set up kasoor. both
are in pakistani punjab. this is part of not only folklore but also part of oral
history. ram tirath is a place of piligimage near amritsar. think of it if rama
was ruling ayodhya, why should sita be abandoned ib punjab---why not somewhere
in mp/up or jungles of jharkhand/bihar. it is because aryans came from he west
and kept moving east. aryans were in habit of taking the names of geographical
features of significance along with them when they moved further east. and in
the new land they renamed the features based on their old historicity. it is a
fact. u see you have ayodhya in thailand too you know kaikayeyi--lord dasrath's
third wife was fron caucaus area---near caspian sea. sumatra island, near
indonesia is named after the second wife of dasrath. therefore lanka of those
days was somewhere near gwataher port of pakistan--which is now under the sea. i
can keep on giving these details to you because i know you will try and reason
it out even if u do not agree. but i can not publicly denounce the historical
beliefs of people as part of a secular govt. this was my objection.
i am also of the view that river saraswati is present day river hemland
of afghanistan.
there are many more such vedic facts which i can argue with an educated man
but not with an uneducated brute--who has been stuffed with other belief. i want
harmony and peace in this country and i do not want people to polarise indian
society on such silly mistakes by officialdom. this was my point. i recommend to
you to read vedic history of india by rajesh kochhar. regards. rajee.
tombaan posted 5 yrs
ago
rajee
to question is not to insult. as a modern man it is difficult for me to
fathom some of the blind beliefs. remember satya sai baba and his cult or the
hugging amma from south...should you let them roam free and exploit the
gullible? as a rational man you should question such impudence of power? or paul
davidar from tamil nadu where the entire family seems to have a direct contract
with jesus christ as far as healing and changing peoples life are concerned.
just send them the money and your cause of grief and they will fix yaa...
ram the guy who abondoned his wife on the hearsay of washerman should be
questioned as much as the guy who married a nine year old or abraham who was
willing to do child sacrifice...
their is also a belief the lanka said in the mythology existed near
gujarat...to question is the only way our species can get rid of the menance
that is religion. any grief in todays world are caused by religions......
robbysharma1 posted 5
yrs ago
dear kushwaha ji.iam with you and here are some historical facts about
hindus and ramas bridge.
ram setu -the controversy about it
ram setu or the bridge built by ram to cross over from rameshwaram to lanka has been in the news recently and the short point which the powers that be( the learned congressmen, marxists and the so called westernized scholars and historians and officers of asi) have made is that it is not made by humans and instead it is a natural structure made of shoals of sand and rocks , which, presently, at some places is three feet under the sea and at other places, it is thirty feet under the sea. now let us assume that they are right now even then does it take any thing away from the story of ram. at the time of ram, which was in the treta yuga of ? (which) manvantar i.e which chaturyugi (present i think but not sure is the fourteenth manvantar), the sea may have been shallower at that time and in that event, the shoals may have been at certain places above the sea and at certain places below it and if the sea was deeper then too in that event, the shoals must have been more than three feet to thirty feet(the present state) below the sea and in both cases to cross over to lanka would have required considerable skill and engineering feat by way of filling the troughs and the gaps, leveling it, may be also cementing it, for several miles for the army (including whatever vehicles were used at that time) to cross over. now would such a feat not be called the building of a bridge and given the antiquity of the period, which may be several millions of years, it may be impossible (although no survey has till now been done) to find the traces of the rocks/boulders/cement used in its buildings(probably washed away, how many traces of the bridges built by modern technology do you reckon you will be able to find after fifty thousand years….may be none…here we are talking of millions of years). the very fact that nasa has found the ram setu (which even they have called as adams bridge) exactly at the spot where ram is said to have crossed the sea as mentioned in our history books, proves the historicity of ram, which the westernized so called historians it would be better to address them as ba******s have failed to appreciate.
although i am sure that ram, who used knowledge and science and modern weaponry at every stage of his life and mission would not have minded if his descendents (in the present age) actually and genuinely needed to break the bridge built by him if it is really and genuinely for the benefit of mankind. such a thought can be harbored only by those in the present age, who would rather take us back to the middle and barbaric age. then there is also the theory that the bridge helped in saving large parts of india from sunami therefore the need of the hour is to tread cautiously and make the necessary investigation and then if really necessary, to go ahead on the path of advancement and name the project after and dedicate it to ram.
while the so called learned historians of india never loose an opportunity to make fun of the historicity and scientific brilliance of ancient india and to belittle the hindu (sanatan dharma), here is what the established stalwarts of the western world think about india and the hindus:-
here is what count louis hamon,1866-1936, better known to millions as “cheiro”, who was considered as the greatest and most successful astrologer palmist of the western world , has to say about the hindus, in his book “the cheiro book of fate and fortune”:-
“to consider the origin of this science, we must take our thoughts to the earliest days of the world’s history, and further more to the consideration of a people the oldest of all, yet one that has survived the fall of empires, nations and dynasties, and who are today as characteristic and full of individuality as they were when thousands of years ago the first records of history were written. i allude to those children of the east, the hindus, a people whose philosophy and wisdom are every day being more and more revived……….
“as regards the people who first understood and practiced the study of the hand, we find undisputed proofs of their learning and knowledge. long before rome or greece or israel was even heard of, the mountains of india point back to an age of learning beyond, and still beyond. fromthe astronomicalcalculations that the figures in their temples represent, it has been estimated that the hindus understood the precession of the equinoxes centuries before the christian era. in some of the ancient cave temples, the mystic figures of the sphinx silently tell that such knowledge had been possessed and used in advance of all those nations afterwards so celebrated for their learning. it has been demonstrated that to make a change from one sign to another in the zodiacal course of the sun must have occupied at the least 2,140 years, and how many centuries elapsed before such change came to be observed and noticed, it is impossible even to estimate.”…..
“the intellectual power which was necessary to make such observations speaks for itself ;and yet it is to such a people that we trace the origin of the study under consideration. with the spread of the hindu teachings into other lands do we trace the spread of the knowledge of palmistry. the hindu vedas are the oldest scriptures that have been found, and according to some authorities they have been the foundation of even the greek school of learning.”…
“when we consider that palmistry is the offspring of such a race , we should for such a reason alone at least treat it with respect,……as the wisdom of this great race , spread far and wide across the earth,”. ……………
“this brings us down to the period when the power of the church was beginning to be felt outside the domain and jurisdiction of religion. it is said that the early fathers were jealous of the power of this old-world science. such may or may not have been the case; but even in the present day we find that the church constitutes itself in all matters, both spiritual and temporal, the chosen oracle of god. without wishing to seem intolerant, one can not help but remark that the history of any dominant religion is the history of the opposition to knowledge, unless that knowledge proceeds from its teachings.”…..
here is the extract from the book “history of india as told by its own historians”, volume-i, by sir h. m. elliot and professor john dowson page-42 chapter vii early arab geographers” the extract which follows is taken from thejamiut tawarikh of rashidu-d din which was completed in a.d.1310 which again is based on earlier authorities,(much before tulsidas, who, say the communists and the westernized historians invented ram)…….. page-66.. “then kanji, then darud(dravid), where there is a great gulf, in which is sinkaldip, or the island of sarandip. in its neighborhood is tanjawar which is in ruins, and the king of that country has built another city on the shore, called padmar; then to umalna, ten ;then to rameshar, opposite to sarandip, from which it is distant by water twelve parasangs. from tanjawar to rameshar is forty parasangs; from rameshar to set bandhai which means the bridge of the sea, is two parasangs—and that band, or embankment was made by ram, son of dasrat as a passage to the fort of lank.
here are some extracts from volume-vi of the history of india by elliot and dowson about early use of gunpowder, guns , cannons and missiles in india which (the present day historians say was invented by the chinese) page-470:--“ it isprobable that the indications we have of the early use of fiery missiles in the ancient indian warfare, refer more to rockets than cannons andwe will proceedfurther to consider the natureof these weapons. manu, quoted by elphinstone, prohibits the use of fire-arrows.” the magistrate shall not make war with any deceitful machine, or with poisoned weapons, or with cannon and guns, or any kind of fire-arms.”…….page-470.. “ the word fire-arms is literally the sanskrit agniaster (a weapon of fire)….. “among several extraordinary properties of this weapon, one was that after it had taken its flight, it divided in to several separate streams of flame, each of which took effect, and which once kindled could not be extinguished; but this kind of agniaster is now lost.” they are wrong it has been reinvented now as multi warhead missiles. “ he then goes on to say, that cannon is called shataghnee, or weapon which kills one hundred men at once.”… page-472 “ the harivansaspeaks of the fiery weapon thus: king sagara having received the fire-arms from bhrgava, conquered the world.” ……. page-473.. “arjuna, the destroyer of hostile chiefs, having heard krishna’s language, and having washed his hands, discharged his bramastra against that of his antagonist. the fury of the two fiery darts acting against each other , overspread the heavens and earth, and waxed strong like the burning rays of the sun. the three worlds were illuminated by the great light of the two weapons; the inhabitants were all burnt, and believed the end of the world to be at hand.” ….. page-475.. “in this place observation may be drawn to the very singular relation of a combustible, which occurs in the extract from the mujmalu-t tawarikh (vol i. p-107), where we read that brahmans counseled hal to have a elephant made of clay and to place it in the van of his army , and when the army of the king of kashmir drew nigh, the elephant exploded and the flames destroyed a great portion of the invading force. here we have not only the simple act of explosion, but something very like a fuze, to enable the explosion to occur at a particular period. the testimony is valuable, for the work was translated as early as a.d 1126 from arabic, which had been translated a century previous from a sanskrit original, even then acknowledged to be very old…… we have other eastern stories, all bearing much the same character, and all composed long before the invention of gunpowder; and, therefore, the writers had no opportunity of applying modern knowledge to the history of a more remote era.”… note: the present day time bombs, car bombs and the like……….page-477… “ philostratus says: “had alexander passed the hyphasis, he never could have made himself master of the fortified habitation of these sages. should an enemy make war on them, they drive him off by means of tempest and thunders, as if sent down from heaven………themistius also mentions the brahmans fighting at a distance, with lightning and thunders” ……….. page-478… “ in the apocryphal letter of alexander to aristotle, we find mention made of terrific flashes of flame, which he beheld showered on his army on the burning plains of india”.
i have written about some other scientific facts mentioned in our history books(scriptures) in my article hindu (sanatan dharma), science and protection of nature, on my blogs on sulekha.com and on http:// sharmarobby.wordpress.com as well as on nsit lounge.
ram setu or the bridge built by ram to cross over from rameshwaram to lanka has been in the news recently and the short point which the powers that be( the learned congressmen, marxists and the so called westernized scholars and historians and officers of asi) have made is that it is not made by humans and instead it is a natural structure made of shoals of sand and rocks , which, presently, at some places is three feet under the sea and at other places, it is thirty feet under the sea. now let us assume that they are right now even then does it take any thing away from the story of ram. at the time of ram, which was in the treta yuga of ? (which) manvantar i.e which chaturyugi (present i think but not sure is the fourteenth manvantar), the sea may have been shallower at that time and in that event, the shoals may have been at certain places above the sea and at certain places below it and if the sea was deeper then too in that event, the shoals must have been more than three feet to thirty feet(the present state) below the sea and in both cases to cross over to lanka would have required considerable skill and engineering feat by way of filling the troughs and the gaps, leveling it, may be also cementing it, for several miles for the army (including whatever vehicles were used at that time) to cross over. now would such a feat not be called the building of a bridge and given the antiquity of the period, which may be several millions of years, it may be impossible (although no survey has till now been done) to find the traces of the rocks/boulders/cement used in its buildings(probably washed away, how many traces of the bridges built by modern technology do you reckon you will be able to find after fifty thousand years….may be none…here we are talking of millions of years). the very fact that nasa has found the ram setu (which even they have called as adams bridge) exactly at the spot where ram is said to have crossed the sea as mentioned in our history books, proves the historicity of ram, which the westernized so called historians it would be better to address them as ba******s have failed to appreciate.
although i am sure that ram, who used knowledge and science and modern weaponry at every stage of his life and mission would not have minded if his descendents (in the present age) actually and genuinely needed to break the bridge built by him if it is really and genuinely for the benefit of mankind. such a thought can be harbored only by those in the present age, who would rather take us back to the middle and barbaric age. then there is also the theory that the bridge helped in saving large parts of india from sunami therefore the need of the hour is to tread cautiously and make the necessary investigation and then if really necessary, to go ahead on the path of advancement and name the project after and dedicate it to ram.
while the so called learned historians of india never loose an opportunity to make fun of the historicity and scientific brilliance of ancient india and to belittle the hindu (sanatan dharma), here is what the established stalwarts of the western world think about india and the hindus:-
here is what count louis hamon,1866-1936, better known to millions as “cheiro”, who was considered as the greatest and most successful astrologer palmist of the western world , has to say about the hindus, in his book “the cheiro book of fate and fortune”:-
“to consider the origin of this science, we must take our thoughts to the earliest days of the world’s history, and further more to the consideration of a people the oldest of all, yet one that has survived the fall of empires, nations and dynasties, and who are today as characteristic and full of individuality as they were when thousands of years ago the first records of history were written. i allude to those children of the east, the hindus, a people whose philosophy and wisdom are every day being more and more revived……….
“as regards the people who first understood and practiced the study of the hand, we find undisputed proofs of their learning and knowledge. long before rome or greece or israel was even heard of, the mountains of india point back to an age of learning beyond, and still beyond. fromthe astronomicalcalculations that the figures in their temples represent, it has been estimated that the hindus understood the precession of the equinoxes centuries before the christian era. in some of the ancient cave temples, the mystic figures of the sphinx silently tell that such knowledge had been possessed and used in advance of all those nations afterwards so celebrated for their learning. it has been demonstrated that to make a change from one sign to another in the zodiacal course of the sun must have occupied at the least 2,140 years, and how many centuries elapsed before such change came to be observed and noticed, it is impossible even to estimate.”…..
“the intellectual power which was necessary to make such observations speaks for itself ;and yet it is to such a people that we trace the origin of the study under consideration. with the spread of the hindu teachings into other lands do we trace the spread of the knowledge of palmistry. the hindu vedas are the oldest scriptures that have been found, and according to some authorities they have been the foundation of even the greek school of learning.”…
“when we consider that palmistry is the offspring of such a race , we should for such a reason alone at least treat it with respect,……as the wisdom of this great race , spread far and wide across the earth,”. ……………
“this brings us down to the period when the power of the church was beginning to be felt outside the domain and jurisdiction of religion. it is said that the early fathers were jealous of the power of this old-world science. such may or may not have been the case; but even in the present day we find that the church constitutes itself in all matters, both spiritual and temporal, the chosen oracle of god. without wishing to seem intolerant, one can not help but remark that the history of any dominant religion is the history of the opposition to knowledge, unless that knowledge proceeds from its teachings.”…..
here is the extract from the book “history of india as told by its own historians”, volume-i, by sir h. m. elliot and professor john dowson page-42 chapter vii early arab geographers” the extract which follows is taken from thejamiut tawarikh of rashidu-d din which was completed in a.d.1310 which again is based on earlier authorities,(much before tulsidas, who, say the communists and the westernized historians invented ram)…….. page-66.. “then kanji, then darud(dravid), where there is a great gulf, in which is sinkaldip, or the island of sarandip. in its neighborhood is tanjawar which is in ruins, and the king of that country has built another city on the shore, called padmar; then to umalna, ten ;then to rameshar, opposite to sarandip, from which it is distant by water twelve parasangs. from tanjawar to rameshar is forty parasangs; from rameshar to set bandhai which means the bridge of the sea, is two parasangs—and that band, or embankment was made by ram, son of dasrat as a passage to the fort of lank.
here are some extracts from volume-vi of the history of india by elliot and dowson about early use of gunpowder, guns , cannons and missiles in india which (the present day historians say was invented by the chinese) page-470:--“ it isprobable that the indications we have of the early use of fiery missiles in the ancient indian warfare, refer more to rockets than cannons andwe will proceedfurther to consider the natureof these weapons. manu, quoted by elphinstone, prohibits the use of fire-arrows.” the magistrate shall not make war with any deceitful machine, or with poisoned weapons, or with cannon and guns, or any kind of fire-arms.”…….page-470.. “ the word fire-arms is literally the sanskrit agniaster (a weapon of fire)….. “among several extraordinary properties of this weapon, one was that after it had taken its flight, it divided in to several separate streams of flame, each of which took effect, and which once kindled could not be extinguished; but this kind of agniaster is now lost.” they are wrong it has been reinvented now as multi warhead missiles. “ he then goes on to say, that cannon is called shataghnee, or weapon which kills one hundred men at once.”… page-472 “ the harivansaspeaks of the fiery weapon thus: king sagara having received the fire-arms from bhrgava, conquered the world.” ……. page-473.. “arjuna, the destroyer of hostile chiefs, having heard krishna’s language, and having washed his hands, discharged his bramastra against that of his antagonist. the fury of the two fiery darts acting against each other , overspread the heavens and earth, and waxed strong like the burning rays of the sun. the three worlds were illuminated by the great light of the two weapons; the inhabitants were all burnt, and believed the end of the world to be at hand.” ….. page-475.. “in this place observation may be drawn to the very singular relation of a combustible, which occurs in the extract from the mujmalu-t tawarikh (vol i. p-107), where we read that brahmans counseled hal to have a elephant made of clay and to place it in the van of his army , and when the army of the king of kashmir drew nigh, the elephant exploded and the flames destroyed a great portion of the invading force. here we have not only the simple act of explosion, but something very like a fuze, to enable the explosion to occur at a particular period. the testimony is valuable, for the work was translated as early as a.d 1126 from arabic, which had been translated a century previous from a sanskrit original, even then acknowledged to be very old…… we have other eastern stories, all bearing much the same character, and all composed long before the invention of gunpowder; and, therefore, the writers had no opportunity of applying modern knowledge to the history of a more remote era.”… note: the present day time bombs, car bombs and the like……….page-477… “ philostratus says: “had alexander passed the hyphasis, he never could have made himself master of the fortified habitation of these sages. should an enemy make war on them, they drive him off by means of tempest and thunders, as if sent down from heaven………themistius also mentions the brahmans fighting at a distance, with lightning and thunders” ……….. page-478… “ in the apocryphal letter of alexander to aristotle, we find mention made of terrific flashes of flame, which he beheld showered on his army on the burning plains of india”.
i have written about some other scientific facts mentioned in our history books(scriptures) in my article hindu (sanatan dharma), science and protection of nature, on my blogs on sulekha.com and on http:// sharmarobby.wordpress.com as well as on nsit lounge.
rajee
kushwaha posted 5 yrs ago
dear tombaan,
as for as religion is concerned, i agree with you that it has
played a big mischief by customizing gods of their specifications. to me, it
does not matter whether it was ram, or mohammed or even jesus. yes you are right
a civilised society can not think that a person calling himself a prophet could
marry a 9 year old girl as also i can not imagine that monkeys could fly. but i
also can not imagine that a virgin woman could be the mother of a child. all
this we can discuss in the intellectual forums but not on the public
platform---where illiteracy is rampart and people have deep faith in such
ideologies. leave such public denunciations to future--when man wolud have
broken free of the tight leash of religion.
my objection to the govt action is that it has publicly
discounted a centuries old belief of the majority of the people> if it were
in camera , i won"t have minded. you are fueling communal feelings and hatred by
publicly making such statements. i know you might be quiet tolerant and
liberal about your religious affiliations but every one is not. that is why i
find your argument a bit wrong and unreasonable. in a nation of 1110 millions,
how many would think like you and me. there fore my dear sir, it is no doubt in
my mind that govt has committed a faux pax--whether deliberately or
innocentl--or whether it was some mischief by a die hard hater of ram. it is
immaterial to me whether he existed or not but not to the majority. this kind of
mischief has a potential for sequelising babari masjid and spread the venom far
and wide. this is why i am against such a folly of a secular govt.
finally secularism does not mean that you tinker with popular
beliefs of the people. you know what happened when salman rushdie did it---the
book had to be banned in india. same thing happened prophet mohammed's cartoons
appeared in denmark. there were tremors in india---far away from
denmark----- b'coz poular belief was questioned in the public domain. how have
you forgotten this? i am afraid i notice a tinge of irrationality and
deliberate insult in your logic. to say the least, i am aghast at you
statements. athiesm does not---at least to me---implies to abuse others and i
do not want to indulge in such intellectualism---if this is what you say is
rationality. you have gone overboard in your hatred sir. regards. rajee.
tombaan posted 5 yrs
ago
i am not sure why there should any holy cows. for crying out loud we are in
2007 and it is ok to ask if it was true or a fiction created by valkmiki.
remember stories esp one told from one generation to another does get
bastardized as it passes to next one. i am not sure if govt should take a stand
or have an opinion but sane thinking people to ask questions is not a bad
thing.
how can we imagine there was a 10 headed demon and monkeys flew in the
skyies?? or for that matter they spoke and build bridges.
it is time religion is confined and brought down from its high horse- for
that one has to ask questions. be it jesus mohammed or ram it is time people
think ....religion has done nothing but add misery to human beings and it is
time we realize it
rajee
kushwaha posted 5 yrs ago
dear ullas,
thank you very much for your appreciation of my line of argument. i find
some people saying that ram's existence did not matter but his teachings did.
what a stupid argument when you question even his existence. any way thanks.
regards. rajee.
rajee
kushwaha posted 5 yrs ago
ddear yash,
i absolutele agree with your three points. this is where the govt had
goofed up. how can you play with centuries old belief of people. if some people
are doing politics on this, then who incited them and provided the material to
the?. it was an himalyan blunder of manmohan;s govt, under the influence of
karunanidhi and dmk. the actual reason is something else and not the stated
creation of the canal to allow the ships to pass through. there is aschool of
thought which says the union cabinet didnot apply its mind on the proposal by
dmk enthusiasts. why is dmk so keen to dredge it up? your guess is as good as
mine. regards. rajee.
rajee
kushwaha posted 5 yrs ago
dear suman,
thanks for encouraging words.keep visiting my posts. regards.
rajee.
suman
agrawal posted 5 yrs ago
ullash posted 5 yrs
agoi agree with you fully. we are questioning our own roots.
ullas
Sainiput posted 5
yrs ago
too for seems to have the government of india gone.
in its resolve to open the sea rout beyond.
yash
chhabra posted 5 yrs ago
excellent write!!! govt. should avoid such controversies. i would like to
share my views about ram setu . even if it was not bulit by vanar sena as
claimedby asi, still it is one among the wonders of the world...bjp may be
opposing it for political reasons, but i feel it should be avoided on three
accounts.
1. it is a matter of faith for many hindus if not all.
2. if it is not man built then it is a uniqe creation and gift of
nature. it should be preseved. it can be explored for tourism. i feel it may
fetch more revenue to govt.
3. we should not play with nature. we are already paying for our
mischieves..let us be careful infuture.
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